Podcast Episode: A Custodian Whose Care and Wisdom Traveled Beyond Duke Chapel
After serving more than twenty-eight years as a custodian at Duke Chapel, Oscar Dantzler is retiring. His approach mixing hands-on cleaning with warm welcomes to people of all kinds landed him a spot in the 2009 documentary Philosopher Kings. In 2016, he received Duke’s highest honor for distinguished service, the University Medal, for his caretaking of Duke’s Chapel and its students. In this episode of Sounds of Faith, we take one final tour of Duke Chapel with Oscar Dantzler to get a sense of the work and wisdom that made him such a widely known figure on campus, and beyond.
SUBSCRIBE TO THE PODCAST
Watch
Oscar Dantzler receives the University Medal in 2016 at a Founders' Day ceremony in Duke Chapel.
Dantzler's work and wisdom was profiled in the 2009 documentary Philosopher Kings.
Transcript
James Todd: Welcome to Sounds of Faith, a podcast exploring traditions of faith, sacred music, and spoken word here at Duke University Chapel. After more than 28 years serving as a custodian here at Duke Chapel, Oscar Dantzler is retiring. For decades, Dantzler has tended not only the furnishings of this grand building, but also its people. His approach mixing hands-on cleaning with warm welcomes landed him a spot in the 2009 documentary Philosopher Kings, which featured the wisdom of eight university housekeepers from across the country.
Oscar Dantzler: It's an old saying from my family, if you can't keep the house of God clean, you can't keep no house clean.
James: In 2016, Dantzler was named to the university committee that made recommendations to honor Julian Abel, the prominent 20th century African-American architect who designed Duke Chapel and other campus buildings. Later that year, Dantzler received Duke's highest honor for distinguished service, the university medal. It was presented by former Duke President Richard Brodhead.
Richard Brodhead: A custodian is a caretaker, and Oscar takes meticulous care of this beautiful chapel in the course of his work, having gained a deep knowledge of all its details, every carving, every pillar, every stained glass window. But his caretaking extends to students and visitors also who come through these doors. The second recipient of the university medal is Oscar Dantzler. Will you come up?
James: I'm James Todd, Director of Communications here at Duke Chapel, and I have the privilege of taking one final tour of Duke Chapel with Oscar Dantzler to get a sense of the work and wisdom that made him such a widely known figure on campus for nearly three decades. Good morning, Oscar. Oscar, you're starting here in a corner of the chapel that most people don't know about, which is by the vestibule area, your custodian closet.
Oscar: Yes, James.
James: It obviously is practical. It's got all kinds of cleaning supplies in a fairly small area, but over the years, you've collected photos and mementos. Tell us, how does this closet reflect your work?
Oscar: It's very important, James. I can't get started in the morning unless I go in there, either get a dust mop, get some windex, just your own things out there, everything I need to clean the chapel that's in that closet.
James: Now, what about, in addition to the cleaning supplies, all of these photos that you have on the door? There's got to be a story for every photo.
Oscar: They go all the way back to the year I started in, 97. We've had former ministers, we had former students. One of the main pictures I had up there, it was Reverend Michelle Schrader, she was in the Divinity School at the time, and one morning she came over and she said, "Oscar, we're going to bring my students over to help you clean in the morning." I'll never forget that trip.
James: Now, there's some celebrities in these photos?
Oscar: Yes, one of my top ones is Ronald Price and Dr. Maya Angelou.
James: Ronald Price, Maya Angelou, definitely big Duke names. So, it's also early in the morning, and it's pretty quiet here. What's it like when you arrive at work at Duke Chapel?
Oscar: You hear different sounds, but most people ask me, do I ever hear anything in here? I tell them, "No, I don't be listening for nothing in here. If you listen, you're going to hear something."
James: Let's step into the main sanctuary. So when people walk into Duke Chapel, they're often struck by the beauty, the grandeur, the stained glass windows, the big high arches, but I'm wondering, as one of the people that cleans and cares for the place, what do you see when you step into the sanctuary?
Oscar: I see 28 years of nothing but history. It's a lot of work, but I really enjoy it. I really do. I have to clean my own home. I don't get paid for it. They pay me here, and I'm amongst history here. One thing I'm so sad about, they've got a hidden mice in here in some of this wood cob, and I ain't found it in 28 years, but I've got a few more days to stay to search for it.
James: There is a legend of a third wooden mouse that's out there, and you still might find it.
Oscar: I hope so.
James: So when you say there's a lot of history, what does that mean to you?
Oscar: My good friend, Terry Sanford, he was a governor, senator, and he was one of the best presidents Duke had. I didn't have him as president, but he was a great friend. As I can recall, when they had his funeral in here, that's the only time the chapel was open 24 hours with a soldier on a guard, and it was kind of luring me trying to clean up that next morning. I was trying to decide, do I sweep up there by the soldiers? Luckily, the sergeant came and said, "Oscar, you're not going to bother them. Go on and do your job."
James: So you just swept around the soldiers keeping vigil.
Oscar: Yes, indeed.
James: What about when you look at the space, where does your eye go to in terms of what needs to be touched up, what needs to be cleaned, what needs to be reviewed?
Oscar: I'm up here about seven hours a day, James, and I look everywhere. See, we got a hundred feet ceilings in here. When I first started, I asked the university to get me a mini helicopter so I can get up there and dust it. As you can see, I don't have one. So I can dust at, say, six in the morning. When the air come on, more dust come down. So it's just a continuous job.
James: A battle against dust.
Oscar: Yes.
James: What about, I mean, there's plenty of practical aspects, but what difference does it make to you that this is a chapel, this is a religious building that's your office that you work in?
Oscar: James, I remember when we was growing up in Florida. You go into Sunday school, and why is she there? You don't stay for church. Later on, they said, "I'll give you a quarter if you make sure we have a fresh bucket of water in here." A quarter? I had fresh water there every time, even though they paid me on quarter. The man in Sunday school made me put a whole quarter in the collection so they wouldn't give me no change for my quarter. It was sort of like we was raised up in the church. It's insistent that my mother said, and you know she had rules and regulations. "You ain't going to wash. You ain't going to earn no clothes on Sunday. You ain't going to even fish." Fish was my mother's main hobby. That's where I get it from. That's the Lord's dish. I was raised in an AME church, which there ain't many left here. But the thing, when I was coming up, James, it didn't matter what denomination it was, if somebody needed help, all of them just joined in. They had a big old bell at our church, which I got many a whipping for ringing. Of course, we didn't know what it was about. When somebody was needing need, they would ring it, and you could hear it for miles. After then, I left it alone. I didn't worry about it no more.
James: I'm always struck that when I'm working here is that you treat Duke and Duke Chapel like a village. So you come in and you want to talk about the sports team and what the football coach should have done and where the best brunch is going to be. I'm just wondering, where does that come from, kind of treating a big research university like a village?
Oscar: James, it's simple. It goes back to my mother. My mother was the first known missionary in northwest Florida. We could be at the hospital visiting relatives. Where did Mom disappear to? Sitting beside that bed of the lady she don't even know. All of that, that's James. Like I said, I'm just not going to be in this world mad with everybody. They can be my enemy. I'll smile at them and just keep on trucking. I tell lots of people, and I know this. I'm from the racist panhandle. I used to see Ku Klux Klan burn crosses three times a week. But my mother, we won't end to that. I tell lots of people, I say, "You know what? I'm going to tell you how strong my mother may be." I point right out of that door. I say, "If the Ku Klux Klan was meeting out there, give me 30 minutes with them, and they'll be taking me to brawl to everybody." I mean, lunch or dinner. I mean, there are people doing just like you. They can feel I'm telling them the truth.
James: Let's walk down to the entrance of the chapel. So we're now in the entryway of Duke Chapel, the narthex. When you're welcoming people to Duke Chapel and introducing them to the school, how do you begin?
Oscar: They walk through the door. I explain both plaques to them. Which plaques are those? This is explaining the mission plaque outside, the Robert E. Lee plaque over here. Like he got band club members. I say, "Listen, during the time when people were pulling down statues and plaques, we had a lot of damage to the Robert E. Lee." Duke didn't store it the way they got it in storage. It might appear down the road. Then I come over here, and I say it don't matter what nationality the students are. I talk about Julia Nagle. I say, "Because that's how I get students focused."
James: The chief designer of the chapel on West Campus and a prominent black architect in the 20th century. So how do they respond to discussion of Julia Nagle?
Oscar: When I talk to them, I go through what he built, the chapel, which you've never seen. I go to a part of Harvard. Then I get to them, I get to the student. I say, "You know what?" I say, "Julia went to the University of Pennsylvania. He was the only black there." Do you know what he went through in four years? I said, "Don't worry. He stayed focused. He came out, cum laude."
James: Graduated with honors.
Oscar: Yes. That's how Trumbauer picked him up, even though the story is that if Duke had known Trumbauer was going to put a black architect on it, they would have never hired the firm. But I give thanks to Trumbauer because he's the one that left little notes around telling people who is the true architect. I want to give thanks to one more person. It's President Broadhead. Eight years ago, he's the only one that gave recognition to the black architect.
James: Yes. Abel was recently recognized here at Duke. So I'm wondering as we're walking down the center aisle of Duke Chapel, I've seen you dozens and dozens of times with a family, talking to them about something and they're laughing and they seem to be enjoying themselves. So I'm wondering, as you're walking, what are you saying?
Oscar: We started walking down and I'm there talking to the family and I say, "Mom, so you can get a better view. Step between the thing, the upper one, there's a corner light." They got the name of the one in there. The most popular one up there is Noah. You got Adam up there. He got his account. Mom was sitting there, started taking pictures. As I'm walking on down, I start talking to the young folks. I say, "I see the school you're in. What's your mascot? They'll say, "Little grizzly bear." I say, "You know I have a mascot here, don't you?" They say, "Yes, Duke Blue Devil." Adam passed by the window with the green devil. I say, "Let me show you something." I back up. I get away from the student. I say, "Mom, that window, do you see something strange in that window?" "No." I say, "Before you find it. Now, it has nothing to do with the blue devil because that window was up before the blue devil." Mom say, "A green devil." I turn to dad. I say, "Dad, do you see that one? How many more do you see?" "It's two. They'll just be standing there. I got them in the mood now." I say, "Now, in real life, Christianity gets rid of Satan." I say, "We got two green Satan. Now, what are we going to use to get rid of them?" I say, "You all turn around and look at the window right there on that side and see if you see anything that can get rid of them." They'll go up there. I say, "Jesus holding the cross. Mom, what cross?" "The green one." "Got it, mom. I'm going to put you on the turns up there at the chapel." Everybody's having fun, man. It ain't like you had a funeral or whatever. But I cover all of this. I don't linger. When you get a person bored.
James: That's the worst thing you can do, get them bored.
Oscar: You know what lots of people say? "He's so amazed." I tell them sometimes. I say, "When I came here, Historian Bill King, I worked him to death." I say, "The last living Duke, she's passed." Now, Mary Seaman, she was in here every second day. I was picking her brain.
James: So Bill King and Mary Seaman's were like your prime sources for Duke and Duke Chapel history. Yes, indeed. You were talking about talking with the family and envisioning campus life for their child, the well-being of students, the students thriving here. I know that's part of your mission. I'm wondering how you interacted with students and kind of done your piece and contributed to the student culture here.
Oscar: James, I'll go back to President Broadhead again. When he gave me permission to do the documentary. Because to this day, I still don't understand it. Nobody [inaudible].
James: This is the Philosopher King's documentary about 2008. 2009.
Oscar: I still don't know as big as this university and whatever. How did they come up with the name Oscar Dantzler? To this day, I'm puzzled. But here's the thing. President Broadhead, we talk all the time, and he knew my love for students. So after the movie was out and we had to travel to a certain venue, after that was out, he came to me. He said, "Oscar, it's a loss of universities inquiring that they want you to come there and talk to the students." Now, this is something that a lot of people don't know. On my off days, I won't rest. Tuesday evening, I was at RDU flying out to some university. Late Thursday, I was flying back in because I had to work on Friday. I totally enjoyed it, James.
James: So you went on, like, a tour with the documentary and spoke at universities where it was screened. That's a wider audience. That's more than pointing out windows at Duke Chapel. What was kind of your message that you wanted to get across to people that saw that movie or when you got to speak at it?
Oscar: The reason why they made the movie, James, is because it still happens today. People with big titles like lawyers, presidents, astronauts, lawyers, you walk up to them and introduce yourself as a dog catcher, a housekeeper. Some of them still want to look down on you because of that title. But if they all put in their mind that our mother was the original housekeeper and she never got paid. I talk about mine the most because my mother raised seven of us cleaning hotel rooms.
James: Yes, so people know you on campus, but not everybody knows your backstory. Like, where are you from and how did you get here?
Oscar: I'm from a small town right about 10 miles from Panama City Beach, Ponce de Leon. I say Panama because when she say Ponce de Leon, say my Andrea Powell. We stole the name from the explorer that found Florida. He never came through there. James, when I finished, I was a straight-A student. Like I said, my mother had raised seven of us cleaning hotel rooms and this is what Mom, she said, "I'll make a way. You just stay here, I'll take care of it. It was graduation night." I say, "Mom, you done got me this far, I'll continue." Let me tell you, James, after 36 hours on that Greyhound, my brother picked me up and we stepped out on Broadway.
James: New York.
Oscar: Yes. My knees was trembling. I had 50 million questions. What kind of person is that? That's an Asian, bro. What kind is that? That's a Spanish person. I said, "Who are the black guys down there with their fists in there with the tams on?" He said, "Those are the Black Panthers and they're giving you the soul power." I said, "I'm a country boy. What do I know about the soul power?" He said, "We don't ease on because they might get a little aggravated." But my mother had put that instincts. Survival and stay ahead.
James: We're here in front of the lectern, the pulpit, the crossing here. So I'm sure you've heard lots of beautiful music and many powerful sermons. I'm wondering if there's chapel moments that stick out to you from your 28 years.
Oscar: When I told you about Terry Sanford, it was open all night long. But if you had to call in, the politicians had to call in so they'll know who was here. It was one politician said he won't make it. It was jam-packed the day of the funeral. The minister was fixing to open it up. All of a sudden, everybody started looking at the door. There was a guy down there with a cowboy hat and a walking cane. Mr. Helms is fixing to make his appearance.
James: Jesse Helms?
Oscar: Yes. You know him and Terry were like, man.
James: Political enemies.
Oscar: I said, "He did that thing because they wanted all of them to check in because of the security." I said, "Yes, that's Jesse." I even had Jimmy Carter. He done been here twice. I mean, yes, Jimmy. The Jimmy Carter. Lady Bird Johnson. That was Linda Bain Johnson. She's been here. I mean, it's been the worst. I tell people, they don't come out and advertise it. But I know all of them. I know what they look like and all. Like when Jimmy came the last time, he had had a reputation when he was president. Everywhere you see him, he'll get out the limousine. The next person behind him was Amy. Not Rosalind. Then Robin would get out last. But the last time he was here, Robin came out right at me. I was standing outside. Amy want no little girl no more. I guess Midway was pushing a little stroller. I went up to her and said, "Are you Amy?" "Yes." There she was. "You ain't little Amy no more." I mean, those are the things I cherish. I think the next most moment I'll never forget is when they gave me the medal of honor.
James: Right here. We're right in the chancel area where that happened. You and Trustee Bruce Karsh both received the University Medal of Honor in 2016.
Oscar: Bruce could see I was nervous as hell. He turned to me and said, "Oscar, this is your mom." I thought about it. I turned back to Bruce. I said, "Bruce, you give them money. I take money away from them." That's how down to earth he was. He said, "Don't worry about it." I said, "Take the escalator." We were doing in Broadhead up there. Man, I can't say nothing about him.
James: He was the president that awarded you the University Medal. Let's walk in Memorial Chapel. I think we may wrap up in there. We're now in Memorial Chapel. Of course, this is where Benjamin Duke, Washington Duke, and James B. Duke are entombed. There's also memorials for Doris Duke and Mary Duke Biddle, Trent Siemens. We're kind of surrounded by Dukes in here. What does this space mean to you?
Oscar: Jane, what really is the spirit of Mary Siemens. Mary was here every other day. That's how well she loved the chapel. Every other day she would tell me, she'd say, "Oscar, I don't want to be buried here. I want to be up in Maplewood with the rest of the family." I'd say, "Mary, that's your two daughters and son decision, not mine."
James: Maplewood Cemetery is where she wanted to be buried.
Oscar: Where all of the rest of the family but one, Doris, is buried. All the rest of them is up there. Natalie, the last one down there, Jane's wife, her family got permission. She's buried in Salisbury, North Carolina in the family cemetery.
James: We're in Memorial Chapel that memorializes the legacy of the Duke family. We're talking about legacy. You're retiring here in just a couple weeks. I wonder, do you think about your legacy at Duke Chapel?
Oscar: James, thanks to the internet, I'm still in touch with students from 28 years ago. I mean, I treat them nice and they don't forget it. I've had parents, they actually have invited me to their home. I've had people from Texas sending me overnight, sirloin, Texas cheese balls. I mean, when I put out about the mice, I always joke them that he's hungry, he needs something to eat. James, you should see the amount of fake cheese I've got through mail for the mice.
James: So 28 years of service at Duke Chapel. Any kind of wisdom you've learned here that you would want to pass on, kind of final word to people?
Oscar: James, it's got to be love and caring. You've got to love the building. You've got to love the people you work around with and all. I tell people, all of them is asking me now, "Oscar, you will be dropping in occasionally." I say, "I can tell you exactly when I'll be back. I might be back podium, but I'll be back in February." "Why February?" I say, "Because Barbara Brown Taylor is preaching that song." Yes, indeed. I say, she's down to earth. She's a real down to earth person.
James: Oscar, the organist is starting to rehearse. So I think that is our cue to wrap it up. Many thanks for sharing your story, your insights and your wisdom from 28 years of service to Duke Chapel.
Oscar: James, I appreciate it because normally I don't do this because I'm bashful, shy and nervous. But for you, I say, I'll do it. I tell anybody in this world, don't worry about man. God got you. Anytime you need help or before you need help, just get on your knees and talk to him. He'll listen to you. People tell me that, "Your mother gone." I went through a hard time when my mother passed. I took off five months, James, to be with her. I learned a lot of things about God. Just being in that room with my mother about the angels and whatever. They say, "Oscar, you went on." I say, "If it weren't for Duke University, the people in the chapel and the students, every day when I was in Florida, I was getting a phone call or a call to somebody else." I'll never forget Duke Chapel, James. It's been a special place.
James: Lots of memories. Thank you, Oscar.
Oscar: Appreciate it, James.
James: Oscar Dantzler has served more than 28 years as a custodian at Duke Chapel and as a recipient of Duke's University Medal. This has been Sounds of Faith from Duke University Chapel. Learn more about the chapel's mission, ministry, events and programs at chapel.duke.edu.
[END]